Welcome to FTFP! In this episode, hosts Bridget Sullivan Mermel and John Scherer dive into a critical topic: retiring with credit card debt. Is it advisable? What are the implications? While John offers a straightforward "no," Bridget unpacks the complexities behind this issue, shedding light on the emotional and financial dimensions of carrying credit card debt into retirement.
Key Takeaways:
- The financial downsides of retiring with credit card debt.
- Emotional implications and the concept of financial consciousness.
- Impact on personal relationships, especially with a partner or spouse.
- Practical advice on tracking spending and understanding needs versus wants.
- Valuable resources from Barbara Stanny Huson, Dave Ramsey, and Debtors Anonymous for those looking to manage their debt.
Resources Mentioned:
- Barbara Stanny Huson's approach to financial wisdom: https://www.barbara-huson.com/
- Dave Ramsey's financial advice: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/
- Debtors Anonymous: https://debtorsanonymous.org/
Tune in to hear thought-provoking insights and actionable advice that can help set you on the path to a financially secure retirement.
Don't forget to subscribe to our channel for more financial planning tips and insights!
Resources:
- Alliance of Comprehensive Planners: https://www.acplanners.org
Follow Us:
- John Scheer’s Practice: https://www.trinfin.com
Connect with Us on LinkedIn:
- Bridget Sullivan Mermel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bridget-sullivan-mermel-a72620/
- John Scherer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmscherercfp/
TRANSCRIPT:
Bridget: Retiring with credit card debt. That's our topic for today. I'm Bridget Sullivan Mermel. I've got a fee-only financial planning practice in Chicago, Illinois.
John: And I'm John Scherer. I've got a fee-only financial planning practice in Middleton, Wisconsin. And before we dig into retiring with credit card debt, I want to remind everybody to hit that subscribe button. That helps other people find this information on YouTube. And with that, I'm interested in talking because I’ve got a very simpler answer, no, don't do it.
Bridget: Well, I think it's more complicated than that. We got a bunch of factors in play. And so, this is going to be interesting to see how we talk this through. So in general, we would say no. And there's a couple reasons for that. First, there's a financial reason that you don't want to retire with credit card debt because you've got this big balance. And you don't want to be paying basically 20% more for everything you purchase, which is what I consider a credit cards symbol of.
John: Right.
Bridget: But then for me, honestly, it's a unworked through issue. Does that make sense?
John: Talk about that a little bit.
Bridget: Yeah, so to me, if you have credit card debt, it symbolizes that you are not fully financially conscious. You haven't figured out how to totally emotionally handle your finances and handle them in a reasonable way. So you're spending too much. That's what it's saying.
John: Yeah. That's why you have credit card debt, because your income is not enough to cover your ongoing expenses.
Bridget: Exactly. So you're spending too much. And I don't like to have people set up to run out of money. One of the big things that we try to avoid is having people run out of money. So if you're spending too much and you might run a lot of money, I want people to work through it. The other thing is that I think that people can have a lot of shame around credit card debt, and I don't think that's necessary. When I think about it that way, it's like, okay, so not only do you have credit card debt, but you also have a lot of negative emotions around this. And so, I want people to be happier.
John: Yeah.
Bridget: And I think being conscious of the situation helps you enjoy what you're actually spending even more. So, I see that there're some skills that you need here and part of it is often emotional skills, like how do I get past this?
John: Yeah.
Bridget: One more thing I want to say is that this is one of those situations that doesn't play well with the partner, like the spouse. So a lot of times it causes tension in a relationship.
John: It's one person driving the credit card.
Bridget: Yeah. And it can be a mystery. How much is it running up? And so, you have this whole drama. That's what I think of it as. And wouldn't it be nice to just take a look at it? I also want to distinguish between a few things. This is an interesting situation because some people really just struggle with just having enough for daily living. But then there's this other group of people (and I've been able to work with some people like this) who actually earn a decent amount, and they religiously save in their 401(k) and maybe even have some pensions or something on top of that. So they actually have enough money.
John: Yeah.
Bridget: But then they really want this credit card drama. I don't know why exactly. They have to kind of discover for themselves the answers to questions like, “Why am I doing this? What are my alternatives?” And they generally feel like they have to. And so, when I'm talking to them, they will say things like, “I moved, and I had to buy furniture,” as if…
John: …they didn't have any furniture before.
Bridget: Or there's no used furniture, or there're no other ways to get furniture than spending $40,000 or $50,000. So there's always a feeling of, “I have to.” What are your thoughts? There's a lot out there.
John: Yeah, I was gonna say there's a lot to unpack there. Is it reasonable to carry credit card debt into retirement? Well, of course, the goal is not to be carrying credit card debt in the first place. So perhaps some of this is not necessarily a retirement versus nonretirement issue. Rather, it's saying, “Hey, I can't get out of that cycle of credit card debt.” Whether I'm 32 with no kids or 42 with kids in middle school or 62 and trying to get ready to retire, maybe it’s some of the same things with different nuances.
Bridget: Yeah. And there's another factor. And I have a lot to say on this. For some people, they are the types that don't keep track of their food or think about their diet. But when their pants get too tight, they stop eating.
John: Yeah. That’s why you have sweatpants😊
Bridget: Yeah. But that's the problem. This is the person who kept buying sweatpants and just kept getting a bigger pair of pants. Some people use credit cards that way. If it gets to x amount, then I know I have to stop spending.
John: Right.
Bridget: But, again, that is not as good of a look in retirement.
John: Yeah. It's just interesting to see all the dynamics that play into the whole credit card thing. And, of course, it's just different these days than it was 20 years ago because credit cards are ubiquitous as opposed to only being used for special purchases.
Bridget: 40 years ago, 50 years ago.
John: Okay, so I'm dating myself here, but there was a time where it wasn't the case. And now you go, “Well, geez, having a credit card is not just for airline miles anymore.”
Bridget: And you can't even log onto your Internet without getting barraged with ads that are specifically designed to appeal to you. It's not even like they're trying to sell you stuff you don't want anymore.
John: Right. They're trying to sell stuff I do want but just don’t need. Well, that's one of the other things I want to pull out. Hey, I moved into a new house, and I needed new furniture. And it’s interesting, I call it the lie we tell ourselves, but it's what do I need versus what do I want? I want new furniture, or I want whatever it is, but how often do I actually need that thing?
Bridget: Right.
John: And you can fill in the blank with any number of things.
Bridget: And it can be something like, I need pets. I need to have my pet go to the vet. My response is, okay, you needed to have your pet go to that, but then you thought that was a one off. You have a pet; it's not a one off. You're spending money on that every month or every year. And what about this other stuff over here? Dinner out, vacation, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff, right? So you can go to the vet.
John: But at what cost? You can't also do all of that.
Bridget: Then just lower this over here. Hi, I'm your regular expenses.
John: And that's a great example. Hey, I'm not going to not give my pet vet care, but perhaps that means that I don't need to go out for dinner and do that thing. And even some of the things you can get to an extreme with it, depending on how you look at it. I need to put gas in the car. You can make a case for that, certainly. Or there's public transportation. There's a bicycle. I know somebody who lives on the far east side of Madison and works in the far west side, and they don't have a car. They bike to work every day. And we live in Wisconsin. There's winter that comes around.
And so you go, “Do I want to do that? Holy mackerel, that is not my cup of tea. But do I need to have a car. Oh, wait a minute.” What are those things? And perhaps it's some self-reflection. What are the things that I need versus the things that I want? And it's okay to get things that you want. It's not like you should cut those out, but it's sort of that self-awareness. As you mentioned, not everything is hard numbers. I'm good at numbers and details, but it's also about how do I make decisions about these things and really think about that? I think that can be useful.
Bridget: Well, and I think for a lot of people, but maybe not everybody, it really can kind of come back to trauma when you were a kid involving different items. I talked to somebody once who lived in a precarious situation as a kid and a sheriff knocked at the door. Talk about trauma. That would be traumatic for a kid, anybody. Once we just started tracking spending things became clear. So that's the first thing I suggest to people: track your spending. So when they started tracking spending, they found that they really didn't spend too much, except when they went to the grocery store, they bought a lot of condiment items.
John: Yeah, interesting.
Bridget: Like all those special sauces; they needed a lot of special sauce. But just with tracking it, they could see what was going on. And I tracked my spending at the same time with that, and I found myself spending a lot. I was in improv at the time, and I was one of the older people in improv. And so, there were some people in improv that were 21 and just really starting out. So afterwards, we'd all go out to the bar, and of course, the older people would treat the younger people. And it was fun. But then I was looking at these bar bills, and I thought, “Wow, that's my special sauce. That's what I can cut down.” But it didn't occur to me until tracking it.
John: I love it. It's a nice idea to try to set a budget. Here's what I'm going to spend. But that's really difficult, looking at what you have spent and then making some decisions about it.
Bridget: Bring a notebook. Take a look at it. You might start getting some insight into what's going on.
John: Because the money can just go. I've got similar examples. Those are great things to track. And I think ultimately, looking at the credit card debt issue going into retirement, for me, it's that cash flow thing. Listen, if your cash flow is not under control, we can say, because we need to project out, “Well, how much are you spending? And let's put it into a retirement projection to see how that looks.” If that number is not realistic, it's just a recipe for disaster. And I think for me, anyway, the credit card debt would be that red flag. That's the canary of the coal mine. It's not like you can't retire with debt, but that's the canary in the coal mine. What it’s signaling is the really critical thing for people to think about.
Bridget: Yeah. And there's some other resources, too. I just want to mention a few to give people ideas, because you might need to dig deeper than what we're just saying in ten minutes. We haven't solved your problem; I don't know why😊 But a couple of resources. One is Barbara Stanny Huson, who has an approach to rewiring your brain and also looking at some of these experiences and doing a lot of writing. And she's got groups, too. But another really popular one is Dave Ramsey. He's really good with this stuff.
We've never talked to him about him on the show, but he's great with this. How to not spend? Another free resource is Debtors Anonymous. And sometimes people think, I don't need to go to that extreme. And it's like, well, you'll see people who are worse off than you, first of all. But it's just this whole compulsion. Knowing you're not alone. Have people to call. Have a support group. Those three resources I would recommend.
John: That’s awesome. That's a great place to wrap things up here. Again, I'm John Scherer. I run a fee-only financial planning practice in Middleton, Wisconsin.
Bridget: And I'm Bridget Sullivan Mermel. I've got a fee-only financial planning practice in Chicago, Illinois. John and I are both proud members of the Alliance of Comprehensive Planners and you can find out more about them at acplanners.org. It's a group of like-minded financial planners in the US.
John: And don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
At Sullivan Mermel, Inc., we are fee-only financial planners located in Chicago, Illinois serving clients in Chicago and throughout the nation. We meet both in-person in our Chicago office and virtually through video conferencing and secure file transfer.
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